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jules
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 63
Location: brighton- uk
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 Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:44 am Post subject: Mouthpieces on vintage horns... |
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this may be an odd question but something's been bugging me. I've recently aquired a vintage Keilwerth Supertonemaster (basically a Conn 10M rip off). A reasonable horn with a nice big sound and a good soft tone. Now yesterday I decided to check out some mouthpieces to see what worked best on it.
Now this produced some really surprising results- if you take a modern horn and try a few options then you'll get some tone variation etc but in this case 80% of mouthpieces simply wouldn't work on it-Berg larsens, Claude Lakeys, dukoff, Lawtons- all of them rendered either the very top or very bottom of of the horn totally unplayable. not a really big deal as a yanagisawa metal sounded superb & Yamaha Customs seemed pretty strong.
What's bugging me is why there was massively more difference in the effect different mouthpieces had compared with a modern horn. Same reed, same position on the cork, pretty quick swap overs so I'm sure it wasn't a matter of me and my embouchure.... but huge differences in playability (lots of gurgling at the bottom end and top notes weedy to the point of being non-existant). Anyone got any thought on this?
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Bariman
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Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 432
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Heh, yes, this can happen a lot on vintage American saxes and such. Especially bad with the lower voices. What happens is the bore of the sax is specifically matched to a certain shape of mpc, not generic. Some of us suspect that some manufaturers did this on purpose to influence the accessory market. Old Conn Baritones need large-chamber pieces to sound their best, for example. Just a throwback to when the shape of the bore hadn't been perfected by computers and such like modern horns are. Just something you gotta live with I guess.
Bariman
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GAS_Wyoming
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Gillette, WY
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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If the Yani sounds good, look into how it's made. What are the spec's of the tip, width of rails, length of window, chamber shape, etc. Try to get a modern piece that matches those specs. Then start experimenting with mouthpieces that are close to those specs to get the sound you want.
I'm in the throes of this type of serch right now for my tenor.
Good luck, Jules!
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Greg Smith
Sop/Alto/Tenor/Bari - Whatever the band will let me play! |
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jules
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 63
Location: brighton- uk
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| GAS_Wyoming wrote: | If the Yani sounds good, look into how it's made. What are the spec's of the tip, width of rails, length of window, chamber shape, etc. Try to get a modern piece that matches those specs. Then start experimenting with mouthpieces that are close to those specs to get the sound you want.
I'm in the throes of this type of serch right now for my tenor.
Good luck, Jules! |
After a bit more experimenting... I've found my holy grail... bow down before the mighty- SR Technologies Pro! Fantastic mouthpiece!
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MACTENOR
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 7
Location: OHIO
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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With vintage American horns, a large chamber, low baffle mouthpiece works extremely well. I have 5 vintage American tenors, and mouthpieces that I would recommend.......Tenney Otto Link Slant Sig Tone Edge....Phil Barone Jazz Model.......SR Technologies Titan.......RPC with rollover baffle......... Jody Jazz ESP
Best Regards Mactenor
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Tully
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 170
Location: Woodinville, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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I've found that a good old Link STM works wonderfully on vintage tenors, and the New York STM, with its slightly larger chamber, ought to be very good as well.
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JPSaxMan
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Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1331
Location: Northeast PA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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I play on a modern NY Link (tenor). I had the baffle modified so that it's more of a rollover baffle and it was refaced. I love the sound I get out of it. I did try it on a Mark VI (186,xxx), and the sound I got out of it was very good, but no different than the one I get out of my LaVoix. I think the large chamber offers a lot for sound production.
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Tully
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 170
Location: Woodinville, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| JPSaxMan wrote: | | I play on a modern NY Link (tenor). I had the baffle modified so that it's more of a rollover baffle and it was refaced. I love the sound I get out of it. I did try it on a Mark VI (186,xxx), and the sound I got out of it was very good, but no different than the one I get out of my LaVoix. I think the large chamber offers a lot for sound production. |
Joel, have you ever tried an older horn, especially a (pre-Selmer) Conn or Buescher? As far as I know, those horns were designed around large chamber piece, and when you try an old horn with a good Link, it shows.
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JPSaxMan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Have yet to even come across an older Conn or Buescher that I can play on. When I do, I'll let ya kno 
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JP
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GAS_Wyoming
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Gillette, WY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Tully,
I'd not heard that before! It brings up a question...are any modern horns designed around certain mouthpieces?
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Greg Smith
Sop/Alto/Tenor/Bari - Whatever the band will let me play! |
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Tully
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 170
Location: Woodinville, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| GAS_Wyoming wrote: | Tully,
I'd not heard that before! It brings up a question...are any modern horns designed around certain mouthpieces? |
Good question. I know certain mouthpieces were designed around certain horns, e.g. Rousseau and Yamaha, but I'm not aware of any horns being designed around mouthpieces. Perhaps that simply isn't the case anymore, which would help explain why people use such a wide variety of mouthpieces on modern horns and all sound great and play in tune.
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GAS_Wyoming
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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Location: Gillette, WY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Modern horns, in general, are definitely more in tune.
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Greg Smith
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Tully
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 170
Location: Woodinville, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| GAS_Wyoming wrote: | | Modern horns, in general, are definitely more in tune. |
Absolutely. What I was getting at, though, is the fact that most mouthpieces, no matter what the chamber and baffle size, play more or less in tune, whereas I've found that Buescher Aristocrats, for example, often have impeccable intonation with a Link, but are unbearably out-of-tune with a Jumbo Java. It seems like the right mouthpiece has the exact opposite intonation tendencies of the horn, thereby cancelling them out.
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