JazZz
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Circle of 5'sFrom experience, all begginers should learn their circle of 5's asap..
For alto's, Concert C (0 Sharps/Flats) is our A Scale, and that's where it starts. The circle of 5th's goes Right from wherever you start, if you go Left it magically becomes the Circle of 4th's.
Once you have this mastered, it will help so much with everything. Everything builds on the circle of 5ths. This is major, the minor circle should be learned once this is perfect!
Just some helpful advice!
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JPSaxMan
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*Golf clap*
Very well said.
Just one thing of clarification, where it says C; no #'s or b's means that it's the C scale and the scale contains no flats.
The flats go in order of B, E, A, D, Gb, Cb so if you have an Eb scale which has three flats the three flats are going to be Bb, Eb, and Ab (that actually applies only to the Circle of Fourths as far as I know) 
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JazZz
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| Quote: | | The flats go in order of B, E, A, D, Gb, Cb so if you have an Eb scale which has three flats the three flats are going to be Bb, Eb, and Ab (that actually applies only to the Circle of Fourths as far as I know) |
I play the circle of 4ths in band the majority of the time to warm up and what you said is right, but how does it not apply to the circle of 5ths?
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JPSaxMan
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OH! It DOES apply to the fifth's *smacks self in head*...I just got my flats (or sharps) mixed up 
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MySaxMax
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Circle of fifths.... we have a playing test in jazz band on this. He gives each person a random concert scale from the circle and we have to play it's first five notes. I have figured out that if he says Concert C for me (alto) my first note would be three 1/2 steps down. A. so does that mean I'm playing the A scale? A, B, C#, D, E? and for Ab I'm playing the E scale? first five notes being E, F#, G#, A, B? And then when he says play the Db concert scale I would be playing Bb, C, D, Eb, F? And just like that? 3 1/2 steps down and play THAT scale?
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JazZz
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Here is a quick reference of concert pitches to Sax pitches:
Concert = Alto/Baritone (Eb)
C = A
G = E
D = B or Cb
A = F# or Gb
E = Db or C#
B = Ab
F# = Eb
Db = Bb
Ab = F
Eb = C
Bb = G
F = D
Concert = Tenor/Soprano (Bb)
C = Bb
G = F
D = C
A = G
E = D
B = A
F# = E
Db = B or Cb
Ab = F# or Gb
Eb = Db or C#
Bb = Ab
F = Eb
I know the Alto one is correct, but if there's a problem with the tenor one just holler. This should help you MySaxMax, and don't stress about the test, just practice and the scales should come naturally, the more you stress the more hesitant you're going to be. If you mess up, just mess up with confidence, it's better to mess up with superb sound than mess up with weak playing.
P.S. If anyone wants me to post the C Mel or F Mezzo Sop. charts, you have to really beg, especially for C Mel.
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Tully
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The tenor one is off: everything for tenor should be one whole step above the concert key, not below it.
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JPSaxMan
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Uhh...tenor is two half steps below the piano. I assume piano is the concert pitch, so if that's the case, JazZz is right.
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Altosaxophonerules
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Play your tenor into the tuner and see what comes out in Concert Pitch. (I'm was goin' to do that, but tenor's in repair shop)
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Tully
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You're right, tenor sounds a whole step, or two half steps, below concert pitch. However, this means that to compensate, everything must be transposed up a whole step. If a tenor player were to play a concert D, i.e. D on the piano, he would have to play his E because it sounds a whole step lower.
Likewise, alto sounds a minor third above concert pitch, so it transposes down a minor third to compensate (the alto chart is just fine, BTW).
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JPSaxMan
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Hold the phone...
You're right....I just tested it out. WTF....now I'm confuzzled. Oh well, I never had a problem before so maybe I'll just keep doin what I've been doin 
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JazZz
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haha, like i said, i'm no expert at anything tenor. I was just taking a whack at it to see how it would go. I guess i'm just a bit ignorant when it comes to other instrment pitches 
Well, i guess i'll get out my tenor and alto side by side and see it it's right, sorry for all the confusion.
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Jacob
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Tenor = whole step (2 half steps) above concert pitch (C)
Alto = 5th above tenor/min. 3rd below concert pitch
And learn the Cycle of Fifths forwards and backwards. Also, don't forget to shed stuff around the Circle of FOURTHS (i.e. C, F, Bflat, Eflat, Aflat, etc).... and chromatically.
The goal is to be comfortable in all the keys. Theoretically, G flat concert should be just as comfortable than C. The more you work around all of the keys in whatever method you use, the easier the harder scales will be.
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Tully
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Going off of what Jacob said, I know way too many people who can recite the circle, but can't play all the scales. The knowledge is no good if you can't apply it, right? So don't just memorize, like I see a lot of folks do--you've got to learn the scales themselves, not just their names (although I suppose names are a starting point). The idea is to get to the point at which someone can name any scale and you can play it right away, without having to think about how many flats/sharps are in the key signature. If someone tells me to play a Gb scale, I don't think, "Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb," because I know the feel of the scale, if you will It's really about building up muscle memory until it's on a subconscious level. One other mistake I've seen frequently: don't stop learning scales after the 12 major ones! From there, it's easy to derive the other six modes (Dorian and Mixolydian being the most often-used in jazz and thus the most urgent ones with which to acquiant yourself), and don't forget all three types of minor (really, only two others, since natural minor is Aeolian mode), whole tone, diminished, etc.
Also, try to get comfortable with playing them over the full range of your horn (however high that may be). And one more thing: practice what I've heard referred to as "flexible scales," i.e. going up and down at various point, not just the top and bottom notes. You can do lots of other stuff, too, like try to switch to a certain key as you go up/down (without stopping), and countless other things like that.
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Tully
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The smilies are supposed to be b's for "flat," LOL.
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Gandalfe
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Yeah, there's some bogus setting turning our posts into emoticon jibberish. I say spot on (s p o t ) and see what I get. 
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CMelodyMan
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Sorry The reason for the problem is because the coding I made up wasn't very good. I fixed the problem, though. 
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Altosaxophonerules
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great, now we can finally talk with ease. 
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BariSax37
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Ive never gotten the circle of fifths, I have just learned my major sclaes by practicing over and over again for weeks. Is it absolutely nesecary(bad at spelling lol) to learn it? and what does it do exactly?
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JPSaxMan
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It does help in transposition and when you're composing to figure out what key you're in 8-)
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Tully
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| BariSax37 wrote: | | Ive never gotten the circle of fifths, I have just learned my major sclaes by practicing over and over again for weeks. Is it absolutely nesecary(bad at spelling lol) to learn it? and what does it do exactly? |
Knowing the scales is the most important part, but when you look at the circle, you'll see all sorts of patterns pertaining to the accidentals (flats and sharps). For example, shows why key signatures are the way they are. Moreover, putting scales and all the flats and sharps in that specific order is one of the fundamentals of Western tonal music. The circle of fifths is where the scales come from (although that's a gross oversimplification). You see all sorts of circle-based progressions and modulations in both jazz and classical music. Navigating these well when you improvise requires familiarity with the circle, as does composing anything worth listening to. Playing music without understanding something as basic as the circle of fifths is not unlike reading by memorizing the appearance of words, not learning each letter.
Frankly, I can't figure out why everyone makes such a big deal about learning it. It's really not hard; it just takes a little time (and probably not very much).
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