Forum of the Saxes

saxmaniac · Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 184

What is your opinion on the war in Iraq?

Thomas · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Alberta, Canada

This is a personal response to the actions of the American government over the years, and focusing on their most recent war in Iraq. Please take what I have written with a grain of salt, and an open mind.

**Reader discretion advised.**

American Brutality
and the War in Iraq

The war in Iraq is the newest instalment in the so-called "War on Terror" of the United States government. New information is spilling out in the news all the time about how the Bush administration "might have made a mistake" in invading the country. As if this wasn't blatantly obvious from the start! This war was and is illegal, and the Americans have not done anything at all to help the Iraqi people. The state that the country is in right now is far worse then it EVER was under Saddam Hussein. Sure, he was a brutal leader, but what his government did is not nearly as bad as what the Americans have done so far.

The American media has been plaguing their people with propaganda, and only now are they forced to reveal some of the truth to their people. The Bush administration has repeatedly refused to give the public a REAL reason for invading Iraq, other than this b.s. about protecting "freedom and democracy." I pity any American who seriously believes that they are living in a democracy, or even a free country. There were many protests against the war in Iraq, some had attendances of over 100 thousand people. If America is a true democracy, then the government would actually LISTEN to the protesters. They never do. This is a prime example, but not the only example of how the American government is bull*****ing its people.

From the very start, the Americans' primary reason for invading Iraq was to get a hold of their OIL. However, I'm not 100% sure if even this is the real reason they did it. Ever since he was elected, Bush's leadership has quickly degraded into what is referred to as a "dead duck" (?) presidency. The Bush administration needed to think of something which would increase his popularity. This is what they thought up. War is a perfect way to resurrect a president from getting washed out, because, hey, war is nothing new in America.

America has started more than 5 major wars since WWII. Vietnam, Somalia, Laos, and Panama are just a few of the places the American government has bombed the **** out of. The American government has been explicitly and implicitly involved in the murder of MILLIONS of civilians, most significantly in Vietnam. And you thought the Nazis were brutal.

For the most part, German civilians didn't know exactly what was going on during the holocaust. This is the main reason why the Nazis were able to continue their brutal activities for as long as they did. However, the Americans know exactly what is going on. It's all over the news - it's no secret. The way they present the information is different, however. It leads people to think that they are fighting some evil force which is threatening the sovereignty of America. The truth is, the American government has brought this upon themselves. Far before the World Wars, in the 1700's, they were slaughtering natives by the MILLIONS. America has had a history of brutality since the very beginning, and only by the continued ignorance of many of its citizens has this been allowed to continue. 50% of the country is implicitly guilty for the war in Iraq, simply because they voted for Bush.

I ask myself, where is the international tribunal trying all these American political leaders for war crimes? Where is it, and why doesn't it exist? This is why. The greatest superpower in the world today just can't bring itself to admit, even for one second, that they are taking "freedom and democracy," the very things America supposedly stands for, away from the very countries they are attacking. Iraq is still in social and political ruin, and it is still worse than it ever was under Saddam. The Americans have not liberated Iraq - they have occupied it. The American government has realized that it is doing far more damage than good, but the only thing that is holding them back from pulling their troops out is the mess they have made themselves.
_________________
Thomas Hay
Sax player, music student, composer, Finale user, and part-time slacker/procrastinator.

JPSaxMan · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:28 am Post subject:

I'm sorry I have to disagree on a few points.

Yes, I agree that the war is now like beating a dead horse. Saddam Hussein the tyrant is out of power, an Iraqi military force is almost up to pace and although there is an imminent threat on the people, we should pull out and let the Iraqi people defend themselves instead of letting our troops get slaughtered.

Now I disagree in several ways to what Thomas said. To say that the country is WORSE now than under Saddam's rule is either complete blindness or complete ignorance. Over the past 20 years billions were slaughtered in genocide. The country under Taliban rule, where women were in the lowest minority. Saddam was an imminent threat to Kuwait and the surrounding countries with his weapons of mass destruction and crazy power. Now he's out of power, so all those threats are gone. What's left is piddly crap as opposed to what he was pulling years ago.

We also have to consider this; have you ever taken anti-biotics? If you don't take all of the pills as stated the disease you're being treated for comes back and sometimes comes back worse. If we don't finish up Iraq now, it might come back to bite us with Iraq going right back into the toilet. I don't want to see that, but I do think as soon as we get an Iraqi army trained and ready we need to leave to prevent any more US deaths.

That's my two cents. If I think of anything else I'll let ya kno. And by the way, this topic gets out of hand I will close it down without warning.
_________________
JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

CMelodyMan · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject:

Don't worry, I'm watching it to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand, but I think it's good that people share their opinions onsomething like this.
_________________

Alto: Yanagisawa (880), Morgan 6M w/ Rico
C Melody: c.1919 Martin Inspiration
York soprano

JPSaxMan · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:40 pm Post subject:

I'm sure you are Exclamation

_________________
JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

Thomas · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Alberta, Canada

JP,

If you got all this information from CNN, I'm not surprised.

Before all this crap in Iraq started, Saddam actually had a steady leadership, and a strong grip on the country, unlike what is going on now. Iraq was an American protectorate before Gulf Wars I and II started. That is, the US was actually giving Iraq war materials and supplies to help them protect themselves. They did this for Afghanistan and Laos as well.

All the oil deposits bordering Iran and Iraq were basically owned by rich sultans and princes. Saddam was discussing his intentions of annexing Iran's oil supplies with an AMERICAN ambassador, and she basically gave him the go-ahead. However, that was just one person. After Saddam invaded Iran, he set off the rest of the world. A giant coalition of many NATO countries, including Canada and many European countries, was formed to take Saddam's army down. Hence, the short and bloody Gulf Wars: Episode I began.

After the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist bombings, the US government basically said, "Hey, this gives us an excuse to do whatever we want." Their first move was to bomb the crap out of Afghanistan, in which they killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians. However, even before this short little scuffle began, Bush's plan was always to go after Saddam. Maybe he just didn't like the guy, I don't know. The fact is, Saddam had absolutely NO connection to the Sept. 11 bombings. This has been proven numerous times, adding onto the fact that there were NO weapons of mass destruction in the country - a fact that most competent people have known from the start of this illegal war.

Yes, Saddam has done some un-cool things. However, the sheltered view of Iraq that the American media has given its people has let many citizens to believe that their military is helping the country out. This is not true, plainly stated. The US killed more than ten thousand civilians in the first month of the war. This is small compared to some of their other engagements, granted, but it is still significant.

Now, in Iraq, around 10 to 20 civilians, and up to 5 American soldiers are killed EVERY DAY. The Iraqi insurgency has found brutal new ways to attack the American occupation, and in the process, they get some of their own people. There is rarely a single day in Iraq where a car bomb doesn't go off, or an RPG isn't fired at a US convoy. The fact is, people are dying unnecessarily in Iraq every single day. The country is a mess. The Iraqi leadership that the US tried to set up is in tatters, and they have little to no power over their people.

Numerous gangs of armed thugs roam the streets at night, and continue to operate under the nose of the American military. They go around and kidnap anyone who they think is a threat to them, torture them to death, and kill them when they have had enough fun. The Americans are not that much better, either. Even CNN has shown pictures of American soldiers brutalizing PoW's (prisoners of war). Just recently, there was a story about a group of American soldiers on patrol. An Iraqi merchant had his dog sitting by the door of his shop, and one of the soldiers walked up and shot his dog in the head. If this wasn't anywhere in the American media, I'm not surprised either.

This is the general state of the country now. Yes, Iraq is worse now than under Saddam. I hope this has opened someone's eyes as to why.
_________________
Thomas Hay
Sax player, music student, composer, Finale user, and part-time slacker/procrastinator.

JPSaxMan · Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject:

Thom (ya mind if I call ya that?),

I realize the unneccesary deaths especially US deaths in Iraq; I'm well aware of that. And yes, it truly is brutal and we do need to leave soon. But what about Iraq harboring possible terrorists? Taliban, a major terrorist group WAS present in Iraq, and still is due to the deaths every single day in Iraq. We need to rid of it, and if we don't, we're gonna be screwed. They'll come back like cockroaches, and worse this time than on Sept. 11.

Iraq is slowly becoming better than what it was 20 years ago. I don't think the people of Iraq (who are still alive) have ever felt such freedom and relief from a reign of dictatorship than now. How can you say Iraq is worse now with that gone? The mass murders are gone, sure, people are being killed every day in Iraq but thousands were being killed within a month or more. That's better? I don't think so Confused

_________________
JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

CMelodyMan · Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:

I think that the war had a good purpose in the beginnig, but now it's just getting out of hand. Too many Americans, and Iraqis, have died even after we accomplished our goal: topple Saddam's regime, and free the Iraqi people from his rule.
_________________

Alto: Yanagisawa (880), Morgan 6M w/ Rico
C Melody: c.1919 Martin Inspiration
York soprano

Thomas · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Alberta, Canada

Good plan, Dave. It wasn't a smart move on my part to even get involved in a political discussion here.
_________________
Thomas Hay
Sax player, music student, composer, Finale user, and part-time slacker/procrastinator.

Thomas · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Alberta, Canada

Sorry, I'm taking too much from the crack pipe. I thought you wrote "this thread is getting out of hand," instead of "the war...". But please, close this thread down. I think it was doomed from the start.
_________________
Thomas Hay
Sax player, music student, composer, Finale user, and part-time slacker/procrastinator.

JPSaxMan · Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:29 am Post subject:

Well, Dave, it's your call but I think we should leave it open. Hasn't gotten out of hand yet...leave it open; no harm or nothing! Cool

_________________
JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

Bleeding_Gums_Murphy · Joined: 04 Jul 2005 Posts: 75

I think the war is just a waste of time, a waste of lives, and a waste of money. The whole basis of the war was that Saddam Hussein had nukes and was going to blow us all up, which was just a blatant lie concocted by the Bush administration. Now, we've just got al-qaeda more pissed off at us (they just bombed the hell out of London this morning).

So now, its just getting out of hand, and our response to the latest attacks should be to burst in there, guns blazing, and blow up anything or anyone that moves until the terrorists turn themselves in.

It's totally absurd that the war should be going on this long.

saxmaniac · Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 184