Forum of the Saxes

JPSaxMan · Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:29 am Post subject:

Your term "racialst" almost turns into "racist" not "racialism" which still sounds like "racism"...gotta love the English language.

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JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

Tully · Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 170 Location: Woodinville, WA

toktok · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 17

Ok so some of you might not agree but this is what i think. It probably is a different view because i actually am a green card holder and have been an immigrant for most of my life in one country or another. (probably lived in France a total of 6 years out of 30)
The way i see it let it be legal, illegal or tourist. When you go to a new country you should fold to there customs and respects the local ways. If you don't learn the language you will miss out on a lot of things, cultural and social. It is true that France dislikes the US for that reason, most Americans don't speak french and don't even try when visiting. In that regard and only that one i would actually have to say that yes french have a problem with Americans. But look around in Japan most signs are in Japanese, you would have trouble even getting around. Now obviously the extent to which you learn a language does depend on your status. My point being that even if you say that english is not the official language i think it safe to say that is is considered that way for one simple reason. When your heads of state have at it and try to get into office they don't do it in Thai, or Japanese or Spanish. So if you give a immigrant citizenship you should expect him (seeing that by doing that you are giving him the right to vote) understand what these people are debating, how is he supposed to make an educated decision with out it.
To come back to the national anthem, i think it was insulting. If they wanted mass support you cant tell me that if they had had every illegal immigrant learn the anthem in english and sang it in english, people would at least appreciate the fact that they are willing to integrate the country.
Now the natural evolution of things in my opinion are moving faster than people think. I personally don't think we should have countries anymore. The whole image of the "true American" being white, or the jap being Asian is false, borders will become mixed. A friend was telling why not pump the "border money" into Mexico and make Mexico a region of the states? Why not my point exactly. A lot of money to be made... but why choose Spanish, why not Vietnamese, where this little event is becoming racist is everybody is talking about Mexicans not Cubans, Vietnamese, french, German and god knows who else...
my two cents...

CMelodyMan · Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject:

toktok · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 17

sorry wasn't aware that they did... and didn't realise i was refering to myself in a deragotory way when i said i was a green card holder...

JPSaxMan · Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:36 am Post subject:

I had made the comment "Green Card" referring to the Mexicans that actually do come into this country legally, but then reap benefits from the US system. Not to legitimate holders such as yourself toktok...I just thought I'd make that clear. You own a very thriving restaurant (I visited your website...wish I could come out there and have lunch because just looking at it made me hungry! Laughing

).

Yes...we'll keep it civil...right? Twisted Evil

_________________
JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

Thomas · Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Alberta, Canada

Personally, I really don't see anything wrong with singing the anthem in a different language. After all, they're just words, and they carry across the same message no matter what language they're in.

I'm a Canadian, and we have had two official languages ever since Pierre Trudeau's Official Languages Bill of 1968. All the signs in all the national parks, airports, and government buildings are in both English and French, and the people working there, for the most part, are bilingual.

Quebec, as a whole, has never truly felt part of Canada, but the Official Languages Act was an attempt to make them feel more welcome. As a result of that act, the national anthem is also in English and French. We aren't forced to learn it in both languages - it all depends on the language of instruction at a particular school, and/or the native language of the parents.

Even though I'm semi-bilingual, I still don't know the French version of the anthem. I never really had a reason to, since I already know it in English.

My point is that it doesn't really matter what language the anthem is in. As long as you are free to sing it in your native language, and don't force anyone else to do so, then there's really no problem with it. The USA and Canada are the two most multicultural countries in the world; we should understand the concept better than any other country.
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Thomas Hay
Sax player, music student, composer, Finale user, and part-time slacker/procrastinator.

toktok · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 17

I agree, but seeing that most of the problem was that illigal immigrants weren't making an effort. To me it doesn't make a difference really. I know how to speak french english and german, now that i am here i am actually taking up spanish so that i can better communicate with most of my staff. What i don't understand is why they are so reluctant to pick up english. One of my workers has been here legaly for 8 years and can't speak english. Being an immigrant myself i can't relate to that. It makes things easier, i think anyway. If i started writting in french or german here i probably wouldn't get many answers...
But on the other hand anyway i am a true believer in language, the more you know and master the easier it will be to travel and appreciat different people...

JPSaxMan · Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

Right toktok, if you decide to travel to Germany you will know their native language and they will be appreciative of you and welcome you warmly.

The immigrants these days refuse to learn English (as you yourself stated) so why should we, as Americans, where our NATIVE language is English, be any different? Why should we welcome ignorance and embrace disregard for the nativeness of a country? Huh? Why? I don't get it! By letting the anthem be sung in Spanish, that is exactly what we are doing.
_________________
JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

toktok · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 17

JP i can relate to how you are feeling. But you have to consider several things. First of all this is a highly personal subject and is on top of that a very complex subject. There is no real right or wrong, and certainly no easy way to fix this problem (whether you are leaning pro or con). Immigration has always been a true mind teaser. On one hand you have the problem of legal and illegal. You will never be able to stop illegal immigration, build a wall, people will find a way around, under or over it. Very easy example, the Berlin Wall, you had snipers posted all over it, security checks, patrols, yet people defected all the time. The Great Wall of China served it's purpose but was penetrable.
So that aside i do agree that illegal immigration in the true sense is wrong. But on the other hand do you really want to pay $50 for a small container of raspberries? A whole bunch of business owners would go out of business, they wouldn't be able to afford the growing payroll. Then comes the problem of people wanting to work. I can tell you sure i can find waiters in a heart beat, but a good dishwasher... no kid wants to do it, and really doesn't want to do it for 6 bucks. Are you starting to see the problem. My dishwasher is a green card holder, but she only makes 6.50 an hour (local min is 5.25 here in Nevada), she is happy with that. The thing is that well she doesn't speak English so chances are her the job opportunities are limited. I am not saying that she is not capable, i have a lot of respect for her (i started as a dish washer when i was a kid) but the lack of language will stop you in life. But i need her, and i am happy she is here. Do you get my point. So now to answer your question why won't they learn English... i don't know, because of everything i have just rambled about i really don't understand. Another employee, she is a busboy(woman) she's really good, and i have already told her if she could speak English i would gladly make her a waiter, she would see her income more than double... but she doesn't want to. She is speaking a bit but not enough... and i feel bad because she does really work hard.
Like i have said, (and all you kids should listen) learn an extra language, you never know when you will need it.
But where i don't agree JP is that immigration is good, and is necessary, don't feel threatened by it, nobody is here to ruin the states or any other country. Immigrants usually migrate because of a need, either there's or the countries. Let it be bad employment, fleeing a country, personal problems, i don't know but there is always a reason, usually countries benefit. I think mixing races and culture is a good way for diversity.

Have you ever seen the Movie "Spanglish", well in the beginning you see this immigrant from Mexico, she moves to the states and gets to a Spanish neighborhood. So in that sense why learn English? It's a complex problem and i think we could talk a bout it for hours.
I believe that an easy way out of this predicament is to have illegal immigrants with jobs have an "sponsorship" from their employers. Meaning they could go down to INS (or homeland security) and with a letter from there employer get a work permit. But once they got fired or quite, the employer would have to turn it in, and there visa would be void. Just make it easy and efficient, it could work. My thoughts.
Well i hope i didn't offend anyone, and if i did i apologise.

JPSaxMan · Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject:

Oh tt,

I never said immigration was bad. And I know the whole thing about the inflation vs. illegal workers (learned about it a semester or two ago). But when the immigrants come just to reap benefits (as in no taxes, welfare up the wazoo, etc) then take it back to Mexico then come back to take more is something I can't stand. But not every immigrant is like that, I know. But for those who are...grrr...
_________________
JP
Student of Saxophone
Music Education (BME) Major-2011
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania

toktok · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 17

i would have to say that most don't just reap the benefits... or i would like to think. You will always have people taking advantage of systems. Life in general is a game... it's all about how you play. Take my accountant, what the books say... has nothing to do with real life... and that is legit. I'm not talking about cooking your books, but once you are done with all the laws and accounting (what ever he does) well the bottom line is different.
So yes it's bad, that is why they shouldn't just shove all of em out, but find a compromise...

CMelodyMan · Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject:

I don't think that, as Americans, we should have much to say about the subject of foreigners not wanting to learn English.
As a Americans it is the a largely held view that America is the best and most important country in the world, and that English is becoming the universal language. So no matter where we Americans go, why should we BOTHERED to learn any other language? That is how most Americans feel, although I don't. Think about it, when was the last time you saw an average American who was fluent in any other language besides English?
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